9/11

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Re: 9/11

Post by Seany C on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:44 am

But how do you know, you werent there.
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Re: 9/11

Post by mcgugan on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:47 am

gdf wrote:I studied the Nazis in detail for a whole year and wrote a 4,000 word dissertation on their propaganda, let me clear this up.

Close to six million Jews were killed by the Nazis, and at least another three million disabled, Slavs and other "enemies" were put to death in a similar way. The Holocaust arguably started long before the war began, with Goebbels portraying early-term SA attacks on Jewish households and shops as "spontaneous" acts of the people. Academic anti-semitism was still accepted in Germany at the start of the century, and a lot of that entrenched pseudo-scientific "proof" of the inferiority of the Jewry helped lend the Nazis' hate campaign some legitimacy - their propaganda built steadily over the years, and though the focus wasn't always ostensibly anti-semitism, the inconsistent portrayals of Jews were reiterated just often enough so that they could be seen as the common enemy (fatcats to the workers, communists to the upper classes). Many normal Germans, however, found Kristallnacht abhorrent, and were scared of the SS themselves.

Now, there is a common misconception of Nazi Germany as this pervasive totalitarian state, but it wasn't quite as bad as we're inclined to believe. You weren't grabbed by the Gestapo the moment you shook your head at a Jewish shop being smashed up, but you still had to be careful what you said most of the time. They weren't going to take you away for chatting to the distressed Jewish family next door, but if you said anything that could be construed as anti-Nazi, anti-German r anti-Fuhrer, anyone could report you. People did, famously including one boy who, after falling victim to the Nazis' education scheme (again, not initially overt indoctrination, but not-so-subtle changes in textbooks, singling out of Jews and the eventually compulsory Nazi Teachers' League gradually grew in prominence) told on his parents for talking smack about Hitler and had them taken away.

So, not everyone in Germany was a raging anti-semite, but many turned a blinder eye than they'd have you think. The Nazis came to power with the veil of legitimacy, but quickly established a dictatorship when Hinderburg buckled and made Hitler chancellor (oddly enough they were at crisis point weeks before, the party nearly fell to pieces at a crucial moment. Had the aging president held his resolve for a little longer Hitler would have put a bullet in his own head). This air hung about them for a long time. They hadn't seized power, but they'd muscled their way in by just barely clinging on to a democratic means of doing so. Similarly, they weren't persecuting Jews, but encouraging all Germans to take a stand against this parasite in their midst. It wasn't gentle persuasion either, propaganda was inescapable by the end of the thirties, and the uniforms, militarism and mass-rallies helped gain favour with the easily influenced youth.

Goebbels himself wasn't a massive Jew hater until the mid-thirties - he was such a propaganda genius that he actually convinced himself of what he was trying to tell the public. He'd previously been on the left-wing of the party, associated with the SA and the Strasser brothers, laughing at the big anti-semites like Julius Streicher and acknowledging in the mid-twenties that little separated them and the communists other than the colour of uniform. He wasn't a fan of Hitler either until he was name dropped by him for his work as Berlin Gauleiter. Funnily enough he took a massive shine to him after that and broke from Gregor Strasser's faction. He was a manipulative little shit, basically, and went where the conditions favoured him, presenting this image of the party as strong willed keepers of the Reich through the thirties as Hitler stayed up till two in the morning eating cake and watching westerns. The Holocaust was almost a side effect that evolved into the focus and aim of the Nazi state at the time - something to unite the people on that elements of the party that hadn't been fully behind the actions warmed to later on.

They were evil bastards. They bombarded the public with their hollow messages, managing to be all things to all men whilst doing very little other than establish their rule and pursue lebensraum aggressively whilst doing their best to maintain a hilariously contradictory image of pacifism on the world stage. It's not challenging "the man" to say that only a couple of million Jews were killed, it's challenging the research of thousands of historians over the years. The evidence for roughly six million Jews killed is overwhelming, and it's only Nazi sympathisers like David Irving - who was convicted of distorting evidence in a trial that lasted more than two years and was investigated by Arthur Broszat - that will try to claim otherwise.

Fuck I've written a fucking essay.

Killing people is sometimes bad. Don't worry, gdf, got your back. Wink

Also, what the fuck kind of grammar does this site have? "A new message has just been added while you write it your."
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:49 am

Seany C wrote:But how do you know, you werent there.

I suppose I have to put stock in the legions of Nazi specialist historians who have happily done all of this research. However, there is no way anyone could have "been there" unless they were themselves a Nazi, and Albert Speer was one of the few who talked about it. Even then he tried to cover his own ass.
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Re: 9/11

Post by JokerJamie on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:58 am

This topic makes for an interesting read...

In all though, I reckon I kinda sit with jammer on it. I do think it was a terrorist attack, but some of the facts are very strange. Nearly too strange to be a coincidence.

And when it comes to the subject of the holocaust...I mean, I visited Aushcwitz last month for the first time, and it really is the most haunting and chilling experience of my life. Frankly, when I read or hear people seriously talking about it like it never happened it makes me sick to my stomach.

Also, who is the person in gdf's amazingly well edited photo?
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:01 pm

I don't know, the internet gave it to me.

I could try and get a name.
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Re: 9/11

Post by Seany C on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:02 pm

gdf wrote:
Seany C wrote:But how do you know, you werent there.

I suppose I have to put stock in the legions of Nazi specialist historians who have happily done all of this research. However, there is no way anyone could have "been there" unless they were themselves a Nazi, and Albert Speer was one of the few who talked about it. Even then he tried to cover his own ass.
I was trolling, lol. Good post though. Times like this I wish that the reputation system had worked.
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:06 pm

Yeah, I had my suspicions it was a troll, but I can never be sure with you Sean lol
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Re: 9/11

Post by JokerJamie on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:09 pm

gdf wrote:I don't know, the internet gave it to me.

I could try and get a name.

My bad; Thought it was a valued member of the forum...
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:13 pm

That doesn't look like a man!
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Re: 9/11

Post by Rebellious Backbencher on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:56 pm

Hehe, the last few messages just clicked; it was GearsCT, Jamie.
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:05 pm

Aw shit.

Callum Thom Tomp Tawmsin.
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Re: 9/11

Post by JokerJamie on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:23 pm

Right, I'm lost. I'll leave, assuming that it is in fact Gears in the photo.
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:27 pm

Yes, Gears CT. Gears Callum Thompson.
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Re: 9/11

Post by JokerJamie on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:33 pm

confused


..........


bounce
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:15 pm

It's Gears in the photo.
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Re: 9/11

Post by DanglyBrasco on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:17 pm

lol
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:18 pm

I thought he meant the avatar.
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Re: 9/11

Post by Moozo on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:29 pm

And me.
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Re: 9/11

Post by GearsCT on Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:08 pm

gdf wrote:Yes, Gears CT. Gears Callum Thomson.

Fixed
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Re: 9/11

Post by gdf on Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:36 pm

I always spell Tompson wrong.
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Re: 9/11

Post by JokerJamie on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:14 am

Ok problem solved. I do feel a bit better now.
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Re: 9/11

Post by Here we go again on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:37 pm

Of course it did.That and the holocaust are sure bets.
The moon landing on the other hand...
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Re: 9/11

Post by token new zealander on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:52 am

:|

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Re: 9/11

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